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[lifetothefullest]

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[lifetothefullest]

[Some part of him bristles a little at the wording but he reminds himself that it's not necessarily inaccurate, and this doesn't sound like a jab so much as just wanting more information. So he's quiet a moment, considering how he wants to word things and watching Ren's posture, before responding.]

Organizations, companies, governments; anything that large and influential is not something you want to make an enemy of unless you absolutely have to. It can go very badly very quickly, the moment you lose whatever value--or use, to go with your wording--you might hold to them. Being used isn't exactly an ideal situation, but if that's the position you end up in it's one that, if you're careful enough, can be played to your advantage.

[And directly drawing the ire of Riverstone, as well as potentially damaging their plans if they think that now all the Displaced will be more suspicious of their motives, both puts them all at new risk and loses the option to use Riverstone's plans against them.]

[variate]

[ when he was a Phantom Thief, those in power used others to further their agendas. at that time, Ren's goal had always been to raise those others up, to break free of those chains that had they had been bound in. part of that experience had been letting people exert their autonomy in their own ways, and relinquishing control.

the fear needed to be voiced before it was rooted out. ]

It hasn't.

[ he says evenly, his brows pinching in the center. no, they had been used by everyone: Johann, whoever brought them here, the government, and now Riverstone. he wants to hear Lance out, but he wants to be heard, too. it's rare that he feels this way. ]

But we're already in danger. We always have been. If we're going to help each other, and those of us that want to help this world, we have to stand up. The right time might never come, but being afraid makes us powerless.

[ there's a pause. ]

I'm telling you this because I believe you could do a lot of good. I want you to know that.

[lifetothefullest]

[He's quiet again, watching as much as he is listening, noting the sense of conviction and getting a better idea of what probably motivated this whole incident. It isn't too unexpected, because it fits with other things that have been done or said, but the last comment catches him offguard and there's a brief moment of surprise that shows in his expression before he can control it again.

He doesn't have the right words to respond with immediately, so he stalls briefly by giving a small nod and letting his expression and posture show less tension, fading a bit out of the purposefully casual countenance he'd decided to work with initially.]

That's... Good to know. Thank you.

[And that said, he takes a deep breath and continues more honestly--]

I understand wanting to do something, and I don't disagree with you on that, so I feel like I should make it clear that I'm not advocating for doing nothing at all times. My concerns aren't academic, they're from experience; I've made both the right and the wrong calls in how to handle these sorts of situations, and then had to deal with the results of those choices.

[And those outcomes have been incredibly wide-ranging, with the repercussions of mistakes being incredibly high. When it's just himself then that's his own problem, but in a situation like this--and those at Hadriel, and many at home--a wrong move has an impact on everyone.]

Knowing when and how to make a move is just as important as deciding to make it. So I should also say directly that I don't necessarily disagree with what you and the others did, but more how it was done.

[variate]

I did something I thought was right and I'll take responsibility for it, I'm not interested in more talk. [ he had tried that—desperately. there's a little shake of his head. ] If you want to help next time, I'd value your input.

[ he knows there's some harshness to his language, but he doesn't sound accusatory. while Lance has certainly earned the label of adult, Ren knows better than anyone that there are certain things that shape you. maybe his own desperation to do something and keep himself and others from being used had shaped him. there have been a lot of things he did that were against people's more cautionary inclinations. ]

[lifetothefullest]

Isn't part of taking responsibility being accountable for it?

[Not that he's super interested in the idea of talking about it that much either--as he'd told Kyna, it's already done and therefore it's a lot more important to focus on what to do now, not what should've been done then--but this does seem like an important point to make. Considering how this entire conversation started, the idea of taking responsibility for something but then being unwilling to discuss it are completely at odds.

But likewise, it isn't accusatory, just a comment, and he moves on.]

Sure, I'd like to help.

[But also--]

Kyna told me that you were hesitant to tell anyone about this out of concern that someone would try to stop you; I'm not going to do that, especially not in a way that might put you or anyone else at risk. If I think you have a terrible plan I'll say that, but in terms of something like tipping off Riverstone, that won't happen.

[He might disagree with someone's choices, but he's not going to try to stop them in a way that's dangerous to them, provided the choice isn't something like murder. He'd disagreed with Rey's decision too, but it was her right to make it and so what he could do was try to help her do go through with it in the safest way possible.]

[variate]

[ Ren leaves it be, but it is a very adult thing. he's truthful in where his interests lie with it, and they're not in whatever Lance's version of accountability might fall into lecturing. in this case, he felt accountable to Kyna, and this was his means of making it right.

it was action that he held to his own basis of morals, but he doesn't press it on others. they all come from different places, different worlds, and in each one they're all different in the way that they feel certain actions need to be taken. ]

I'm not asking you to standby. [ he's quiet for a moment, but it's a sort of thoughtful pause. ] Being a traitor and confronting someone with your own belief are different.

[ actually. ]

I want to know what that conviction means to you.

[ it almost feels like it's buried somewhere, subdued. ]

[lifetothefullest]

[He didn't really expect a response to the first part, but he does note it all the same. Responsibility is an easy thing to claim, but it doesn't mean all that much if all the difficult parts of being responsible are avoided.

But that's an issue for another time, if at all; he isn't any more interested in lecturing Ren than Ren is in hearing it. So he's quiet while Ren continues, noting the choice of words--'traitor' is a pretty strong one, and not usually used lightly--but not addressing it, some of his own often hidden intensity coming out as he's more focused on listening and reading nonverbal information than on remembering to temper it.

He's getting a sense of where this might be going, and part of him doesn't care to play along; he rarely lets people actually question him, let alone about anything personal. But he's taking a chance that this will be worth it in forging a better understanding, and is trying to trust that this is all coming from a place of caution and Ren needing to know what he's dealing with rather than bad faith.

So after a moment he decides to respond, and it's a pretty easy answer.]

Holding to your morals and belief in what's right, even in a situation that might challenge them.

[And to clarify--]

That doesn't mean being unable or unwilling to change an opinion if given good reason, but it does mean being unwilling to compromise what's right for what's easy.

[variate]

[ people usually covered themselves in social graces to show only a part of who they were to the world—it was part of why the Phantom Thieves strove for social reform.

he hadn't really expected an answer. Ren let people pull those layers back, themselves, when they were comfortable with it. the mask of social graces was something that came off, in the end. ]

It's hard to figure out what that means here.

[ for himself, too. ]

[lifetothefullest]

In what sense?

[It's a genuine question, looking for more elaboration. It isn't an opinion he holds--conviction isn't the problem for him, how to direct it is--but he can see many ways that it might be something other people struggle with. He doesn't want to assume which it might be, though.]

[variate]

[ his voice is quiet, thoughtful. ]

We were manipulated by Cassius. Twice. By Grey, too. Probably more behind the scenes. We were taken to the gates against our will, and we played right into that. Then Judas put us all in a simulation. Now Riverstone.

[ he leaves out dying in Zerzura, he doesn't want to make that something, even if it still burrows heavy inside of him.

there's a pause, and his fingers twice. the anger in him stirs, but his expression remains fixed. ]

I've watched this happen over and over.

...

People keep coming and going, all with different ideas of how things should be done. Putting those convictions against up against each other is a way of keeping us controlled. These things that keep happening aren't going to wait for us to catch up.

[lifetothefullest]

[Okay, this makes sense. It pulls pieces together, connects other information, and gives him a better idea of what the underlying issue actually is; it also lets him truly empathize, because while he's entirely capable of caring about others' feelings and experiences without a personal framework to relate to, he has one here. He knows this feeling.

He's silent several seconds after Ren finishes, trying to decide how to respond, but doesn't bother to hide that he's doing so; it's always a risk for him, in many ways, to be honest, but he thinks that's the best choice here. So he thinks it over, taking the time to come to what feels like the right way to approach this, before starting off simply.]

You're right about our situation.

[They're being controlled, and they're in a position with very little room to move, and many of those here seem content with just letting things happen and reacting to them. It's a real issue, and an incredibly frustrating one, but the situation is also dangerous and the risk of simply being paralyzed by fear is very much there.]

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that, in a situation in which you have very little power, finding and using the opportunities you have is high risk and something that requires a great amount of care. But the timing to act is also usually limited.

[He gives a quiet sigh, taps his fingers idly against other hand before he catches himself giving the show of nerves, and looks back up at Ren again.]

There's a very fine line, between waiting long enough to consider all your options in order to make a careful choice, and waiting too long and missing the opportunity. I think that you and I have different ideas of where that line is, but that doesn't mean I'm right; maybe you made the correct call, and I'm being too cautious, because I've acted too quickly before and the consequences were...

[Nothing he wants to talk about.]

Just like you don't want to wait and do nothing, I don't want to misstep. But I think we have the same end goal.

[Which is to actually do something about this situation.]

[variate]

Being too cautious and not taking a gamble means we could miss that move.

[ but he also went in to prove another point: he wasn't going to lie down like a good little test subject when Riverstone blatantly manipulated the game. it was his own little rebellion—standing up for what he believed was right. ]

I have to trust myself. [ even if he screws up, he can't waver on that one. ] That gamble got the Project Spinetail documents. If I didn't take a chance, we wouldn't have those.

[ then, quietly: ]

If we had more people for Riverstone, more resources, it might've gone differently. It was like they prepared for something, but even will a small group they couldn't fully prepare for us.

[ his voice gets more confident. ]

That's something.

[lifetothefullest]

It is something.

[He isn't convinced it's enough of something to be worth the risk that was taken and the potential consequences of angering a corporation like Riverstone, but he isn't going to bring that up either. It's done, he's made his point about his problems with it, and what's important now is figuring out what to do going forward.]

Do you have an opinion as to why you think that was? Do you think they were prepared but not actually expecting anyone to do anything, or just didn't actually know what they might be dealing with, or something else?

[variate]

[ then what comes next seems sincere. it's not a cut or a dig, but something that he noticed since their argument about the safehouse. ]

You never seemed to trust my opinion before. Are you going to start with this?

[ that was part of it: new people arriving and not trusting the experiences of the other people who had been here. Lance basing his opinion on what he deems "worth it" or "not worth it." ]

[lifetothefullest]

I disagreed with your opinion before.

[He makes the clarification evenly; it's important to say, but likewise it's sincere and not an attempt to make a jab.]

I can't promise you that I won't again, but that doesn't mean I'm not genuinely interested in what you think.

[It's one of those things that he has trouble explaining sometimes, that he can disagree on something but still genuinely understand and value the other person's insight and opinions. But going back to their discussion on conviction, if the issue is something he's completely in opposition on--like the safehouse thing--for an important reason, then no amount of respect for their opinion is going to change his.

He doesn't see that being much of a problem in this situation, and although that means he could've just agreed and been done with, he decides it's worth making this clear.]

[variate]

I don't care if you disagree. I said trust. Don't mix those up.

[ it comes out firm. his dark eyes narrowing. there's an intensity inside of him that hides behind his stony expression that comes through in his eyes.

it had come off as controlling—just how Maruki had been controlling. even with good intentions, Maruki had already decided what was the best kind of circumstance for everyone. it had stripped them of autonomy, even of Maruki wanted nothing more than them to be happy, by belittling how they were coping with their own experiences. Lance reminds him of the same, dismissing people, and their own experiences, in favor of his opinions. ]

They were expecting us to do something. Since more people didn't stand up, there was a message sent. [ there's a pause. ] But even with the handful of people who came with me, we were able to surprise them.

[lifetothefullest]

I think you and I have very different understandings of what we consider 'trust'.

[Because trusting someone's opinion, to him, means being willing to believe they're right even if his own experience and intuition tell him otherwise. That's incredibly rare for him, and not something he does lightly, especially not when it's someone he barely knows and has disagreed with more often than not.

That's also vastly different from respecting someone else's opinion, or believing they may have good intentions even if they're getting there a different way, which have categories of their own. He's not entirely sure how Ren's using the trust here, but he's pretty certain it's not how Lance is.

But either way, he nods in thought at the rest of what Ren says, clarifying--]

Since more people didn't stand up in which respect, agreeing to the tests or doing something to oppose them?

[variate]

[ to him, they're all in the same situation. to some extent, it ties them all together. for Ren it meant putting aside the personal investment with being right or wrong, and pulling from experiences. it seemed that Lance was able to brush off others experiences for his own, and it strikes an odd—adultish—chord for him. ]

Yeah, it looks like we do.

[ closer, again, to Maruki that's comfortable. they'll have to agree to disagree on that for now, as this was about Riverstone now. ]

Doing something other than going along with their front of experiments. You can take the cautious road, but they've probably caught on already. I don't want to keep acting like the world isn't continuing around us, like it doesn't notice our choices.

[lifetothefullest]

[Lance decides not to say any of the things he's currently thinking of, because he doesn't really think any of what he'd most like to bring up would go anywhere. Instead, he contemplates how to continue, finally deciding on--]

So what now, then? How do you think that, with everything we know now, we should proceed?

[variate]

[ there's a quiet pause, and Ren looks somewhat contemplative. then, he says: ]

We turn it around. Riverstone wants us for a reason.

[ they're valuable for a reason, right? not just Riverstone, Cassius, and Grey, they all are entangled in a web of push and pull because everyone wants something from them. ]

Whoever's up for it, we need to refine our powers, and learn how to take control of our dreams. If there's a big dream with everyone in it—then we need to find out if we can tap into that.

[lifetothefullest]

Leveraging our position, and whatever value we have, can be very effective. But, and I'm sure I'm sounding like a broken record at this point, it has to be done carefully because it can easily backfire. Especially since Riverstone knows we're aware of their actual interests, beyond just our powers.

[And it's a lot more difficult to manipulate people who are aware of it, which goes both directions; with the Displaced aware of Riverstone's intentions, it's difficult for Riverstone to twist things to their benefit. But, in reverse, it's also very difficult for the Displaced to try to use that implied value when Riverstone knows they're aware of the truth.]

But I agree, in the sense of practicing our powers and trying to better control dreams, especially since the latter seem to have very real and potentially widespread effect. The more we can do with them, the better.

[variate]

There's proof, now.

[ isn't that what was argued in that post? they didn't have "proof" that Riverstone was underhanded. they do now, he doesn't regret that. ]

We're not going to win a game they've already rigged. Politics, paperwork—they've got the upperhand in all of that. We need to work where our strengths are. That's our powers, and the dreams.

[ and ok, that's kinda messing things up. but heeeey. ]

[lifetothefullest]

[He's not going to bother arguing on the first part, since he doesn't think it'll get anywhere, so instead he focuses on the second.]

It's also our experiences. There are some--or many--ways that being from other worlds puts us at a disadvantage here, but there are others were it's the opposite. We have a wider range of experiences, knowledge, and ways of thinking than could be found in people from only one world; some of that isn't useful, or may even be detrimental, but not all of it. It's also an advantage that, even if Riverstone or anyone else actually knew about, they still couldn't predict.

[variate]

If it's used in a way that doesn't divide us.

[ this isn't the Phantom Thieves, he knows that. there's a distinction between him and Lance, and him and the rest of the group that had put themselves on the line for social reform.

part of moving past something was knowing your position.

there's a quiet, even tone to his voice. he thinks of what Clarke's told him, of Cassius and Judas, and then Grey taking constant advantage of their position. ]

It makes us predictable now. To use that experience, we would need to make sure that the result doesn't depend on a handful of people. We don't need to unite, but we need to a level of trust. Not just in each other, but in the regular people of this world.